Daniel Johnston INTERVIEW BY ANDREW HULTKRANS [INTRO] MONDO 2000: How are you doing? I hear you're going to be moved to another building soon. DANIEL JOHNSTON: Yes, I'm moving to another building here at the old mental hospital place. I will have a lot more freedom. I'll be able to walk around downtown in my own territory of Austin, Texas. M2: Are you glad to be back in Austin? DJ: Yes, I am. I didn't really want to come here under the circumstances_ having to come to the old looney bin again. But now it's going to all work out. I'll be back in town and I'm planning to do live shows. M2: You are an incredibly prolific songwriter over the years, and you've produced more songs than most people I can think of. I was wondering how you write songs_ how do they come to you? DJ: I'll just start banging on some chords and I'll mumble something_ M2: So the music comes to you when you're fooling around on the instrument, and then you mumble a melody until the words come? DJ: It's not very often that I'll try to think of a subject. It just comes out. M2: There are some characters that you've written several songs about, particularly Casper. And there are other characters that you mention, maybe alter egos of yourself, like Joe, "Keep Punching Joe," and things like that, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about why you're interested in Casper and King Kong and some other characters? DJ: In the Beatles songs_ how they would refer to different things_ another song. Like John Lennon said, "The walrus was Paul." I started referring to other songs that I had written and started to make like an epic of songs that were referring to each other. Then the drawings referring to the songs and the songs referring to the drawings. M2: Casper in particular, like even your latest album, you have a song called "I Know Casper." DJ: A long time ago when there was God and there was Jeremiah the Bullfrog, Satan took Lucifer and entered Lucifer and made him jealous of Jeremiah. Lucifer said something like, "He thinks he's better than him." And God killed Jeremiah. And Jeremiah's ghost is Casper the Friendly Ghost. And Jeremiah is John Belushi. M2: So do you think about Casper a lot? DJ: Yeah, he's a personal friend of mine. M2: You say that in the song. Like when you see him on the TV and you turn every channel and he's still there? DJ: Yeah, he can do things like that. Like I can pick somebody out on the TV and they will be Casper. And he'll be a hero or something. M2: And that's Casper on the cover of Yip Jump Music_ your drawing of Casper. DJ: Yeah. There's a male and a female Casper. On the cover, the one that got printed up on the CD is a female Casper, but the song's about the male Casper. M2: Inside that booklet_ and from talking to Jeff_ I can tell that you're definitely interested in comics. DJ: Oh yeah, Jack Kirby's my favorite. M2: I figured that. And like all the great 60's Captain America stuff. If you like Jack Kirby a lot, you must like all his Fantastic 4 work too. DJ: Of course_ The Incredible Hulk, The Mighty Thor_ M2: I know you're interested in Captain America. Can you tell me a little bit about why you like him so much? DJ: One time I had some money and I wanted to but a puzzle and my mom wouldn't let me buy the puzzle. So I was real mad at my mom. So later that day at the grocery store I saw Captain America, and it was like wow, Captain America. And I read it, and I always remembered that name Jack Kirby. And I always tried to find Jack Kirby comic books and Captain America. And Captain America is a symbol to me of the glory of the red, white and blue, of the American dream. That it's still true today. There's still the Bill of Rights. M2: So you think Captain America is still something we can look torwards as an ideal? DJ: Captain America will return. In the flesh. In the Great Tribulation there will be a great Captain America who will save many from total doom. M2: That's a good thing to hear. I've read someplace that you said to somebody else that Stan Lee is making the mistake of saying that he owns Captain America, and that you disagree with this. DJ: Jack Kirby and Joe Simmons in the 1940's made up Captain America. And then in the 1960's Stan Lee and Jack Kirby_ M2: Did Marvel_ DJ: They were working on a number of heroes together. Before that, Jack would think up the origin and they would work up the stories together in person or over the phone, whatever they were doing in New York at that time. But when they brought Captain America back_ when they did the origin again it said Stan Lee. It was the exact origin that was in the original story. So later I would buy these books that they reprinted Captain America in, and it would say "by Stan Lee." Stan Lee is writing in the introduction, "when I invented Captain America_" And I would go, "Wait a minute, I know the real story behind this." Captain America isn't a fictional story; his origin is before the war. Not that I don't love what Stan Lee has done. If it wasn't for Stan Lee, Jack Kirby might have had a hard time getting a job. They really did a good job, what they did, it was incredible. And they were good friends. M2: What about some of the other early Marvel heroes, do you like the Hulk and the Mighty Thor? DJ: The Incredible Hulk is Frankenstein. A lot of people forget that. And when John Buscema would do the Hulk, it was always with that big "Aaargh_" The Hulk didn't always look like that. He was a very thinking and compassionate guy. And he didn't like evil people, and that's why he would smash them. M2: Right. But you think he's like Frankenstein because he's the product of science? It happened because he was near the radiation explosion. DJ: It was gamma rays. M2: But it was an explosion; it was a scientist's test in the desert. DJ: Right. But see the comic book characters exist in another plane: in the imagination of Jack Kirby and Stan Lee, the writers. But they are also, I believe, prophecies of future heroes to come. M2: Now they're myth, but soon they'll be history. DJ: That's true. They'll be real. They'll be super-heroes like that for real during the time of the Great Tribulation. They'll be great, mighty super-heroes. God will not forget the friends of the Ghost. M2: Right. Well, what about these people like the Hulk and Spider Man and the Mighty Thor and people like that who have problems? Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the super-hero with an Achilles heel. DJ: Well, everybody has problems. M2: Yeah, they made the heroes more human in that way. DJ: Well, a lot of super-heroes of the Bible started out as just a human. A lot of the great prophets like Elijah were just human beings that grew up in faith and believed in us and became super-heroes. M2: So you see a lot of these comic characters as Biblical prophets. DJ: As a mirror to the future and the past. Because the artwork was so great, it wasn't just that the man was inspired doing acid or something. He was a prophet. M2: And Kirby was just transmitting the word of God_ DJ: Just like I do in my cartoons and in my songs. They write themselves. You ask me how I do it. I've paid attention to craft and everything, and I can pull a song together when I want to. That's what John Lennon always said. The good ones just really come. And I like to get busy, and I plan to start writing songs again once I get a hold of my guitar. And put together a song for a live album called Frankenstein Love. M2: Why Frankenstein Love? DJ: 'Cause I love Frankenstein. 'Cause I love me. M2: Excellent. I think this drawing of yours really represents what you were just talking about, which is the one-I think it's of you-it's on the inside of the Yip Jump Music booklet. It's a man with an open head with an angel flying above him holding an organ or a keyboard. And there's a devil dragging his ankles away. DJ: Yeah, there's always sort of the yin yang. Good triumphs over evil every time. M2: I believe that. But the angel represents your muse coming to you? DJ: Seeds well planted will sprout. M2: I want to ask you about more of your drawn characters. The frog creature with the eye stalks, the long eyes, what's his name? DJ: That's Jeremiah. God only chose Jeremiah because I said, "Listen, if Satan gets in here and they accuse me, kill me." And he said, "God, I brainwashed him," and I said, "Hey, listen, if he's in here you kill me first because if you don't kill me they will and I'll be dead for sure. But I know that I'll live on because love never dies." M2: And then when Jeremiah gets killed he becomes Casper the Friendly Ghost. DJ: Right. I am the Pontius of Jeremiah. M2: What about the flying eye? You have a song about the flying eye. DJ: Well, it's kind of a movie, the show that everybody sees. M2: Which one is that? DJ: That's how come the photography is so wild, because they fly it back and forth and do different angles and God edits it; puts it together on a big mixing board. M2: Which film are you talking about? DJ: I'm on film 24 hours, where everybody sees me. M2: I see what you mean. But you have a song called "Fly Eye"_ DJ: [Sings] Fly Eye, Into the Night, Fly Eye, It's Alright_ M2: Right. It's on Continued Story. DJ: Yes. See, these eyes get kind of tired of filming me all the time, because I get depressed, and they have a hard job to do, and they're working over-time all the time. It's very hard work for them to do, but they do a fine job. I'd like to commend The Order of Fly Eyes, because they all have a personality all of their own. M2: Are they menacing to you? DJ: Well, at first I didn't know what they were, and then somebody told me, "Those are the eyes of Satan,", and I said "Thank you." But they're my friends 'cause they're always there and they're filming me and they're entertaining a lot of people. M2: What about musical influences? I know you love the Beatles. DJ: The Beatles are the greatest. The Beatles are still together. John, Paul, George and Ringo are recording all the time, and they're recording albums for when the Great Tribulation is over, and the 10,000 years of Christ they'll be jamming_ M2: The Beatles will be back in the endtimes too_ DJ: They'll be back and they'll be back sooner. Everyone is going to come back and they'll be better. Marilyn Monroe will be back. I'm bringing all kinds of people back in sort of a family reunion. M2: Right. In the song, "The Beatles," you say that you "really wanted to be like him, but he died," and obviously he's John, so is he your favorite Beatle? DJ: Yes, he is. He was really like my father. I was born in heaven before I was born here. He was my father and Paul McCartney was my twin brother. M2: I see. What did you think about the time when John and Paul got angry with each other and broke up The Beatles? DJ: Well, they didn't really get all that angry. M2: But John's lyrics were definitely stranger than Paul's_ DJ: But Paul McCartney wrote "Hey Jude." But who wrote "Yesterday"? Was it Frankenstein or was it Paul McCartney? I mean I can't get over this. Listen to those lyrics. I know that Frankenstein will write a song never before hearing "Yesterday." He'll pick up his guitar and he'll say, [sings] "Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away; Now I need a place to hide away; Oh, I believe in yesterday." He won't be remembering the song-he'll be writing it! Paul McCartney just wrote the melody and he wrote the lyrics. Who wrote it? Who wrote what? When I hear a song on the radio am I writing it? Some people believe this kind of stuff. My one friend is always running around saying "I'm producing this video, this television show; this is me singing this." And I think, "That's what I used to think, but it sure sounds crazy." M2: Right. Well, who else do you like? Jeff Tartakoff told me that you liked Elvis Costello at one point. DJ: Yeah, I loved Elvis Costello. He has a song, "You'd Better Watch Your Step," remember? M2: Yeah, he has a great sense of word play. He makes a lot of good puns. DJ: He said, "If you're young and original, get out before, you get to watch your step_" I was watching him in concert in a front row seat, and when he came to that line he turned and looked right at me. It freaked me out. M2: That's great. Yeah, I saw him this year too. Now he's getting older and he's still doing it. DJ: Yeah, I saw him again a few years later, just a couple of years ago. M2: What do you think about that line? DJ: It's good advice. M2: Well, some people like yourself remain original all the time. DJ: Some people can't help to be original. Other people need just a little bit of encouragement. We're one of a kind, every one of us. And they're trying to brainwash you and make you think you're just another one, and we're all the same, but that's not the way it is. We all have different ancestors, and it's part of our heritage. We don't have to inherit anything that we don't want. If we have something better_ our past, our family or our own lives_ we don't have to keep that with us or carry it like a flag. We can always change and look for a better life. If you're old and original, get up and do something! M2: That sounds like Mike Watt of fIREHOSE, who I know you've met. He always says after he plays a concert, "Now go out and start your own band!" DJ: Good advice. Hey, here in Austin anybody has a band. M2: I was going to ask you about the Austin music scene. What kind of stuff do you like out there? DJ: I'm excited about checking it out again as soon as I get out of the hospital. There are quite a few more clubs than there used to be, and at least five times as many bands. M2: The scene is booming. Everybody in the country went there 'cause they think it's the center of music. DJ: Yeah, it really was something when I first came here with the traveling carnival back in 1985. I hung around working at MacDonald's, and then started going to the clubs and seeing all these great bands, and started playing out myself. First thing I knew, MTV came to town and we were all stars. Everybody I knew was on this show. It was funny. M2: A lot of great bands have covered your tunes, and I was wondering if you liked their versions of your songs. DJ: I like it any time I hear someone try to do one. M2: What are some of your favorites? DJ: Oh, I like fIREHOSE. M2: Do you like the Yo La Tengo version of "Speeding Motorcycle"? DJ: One thing about the Yo La Tengo version of "Speeding Motorcycle," it sounds like they're dead. M2: That's true. It's a lot slower than your version. Yours is more upbeat. DJ: I thought we rocked pretty good over the phone. M2: I heard you just met them recently. Did they come by lately? DJ: No, they haven't visited me. There's all kinds of rumors about people visiting me, but my manager is the only one that comes by. If I'm still here, invite people to come see me. M2: What about Sonic Youth? You did a track on 1990 with a couple of Sonic Youth fellows. Do you like those guys? DJ: I love them, yeah. They made some great music. M2: Are you allowed to listen to music now? DJ: Yeah, we have our own radio, and we have a tape of Artistic Vice that my manager brought the other day. It's sort of a hit with a few of us. M2: I'll bet. I was thinking about some of the tunes on that album, like "I Killed the Monster." What is that about? DJ: It was written by Frankenstein. Right before Jesus returns, Frankenstein will kill the monster. M2: I see. And the monster is who? Is the monster Satan? DJ: Vile Corrupt takes on many forms. He's my enemy, but he doesn't bother me anymore. He wants me to be happy to write songs because he loves me to do drawings and write songs. He wants me to be productive so he can live. He wants me to sing a song about him. So he can fight his battles in the drawings. M2: What about when you first started playing music? Some of your songs sounded like hymns or the melodies sound like church music. Did you start to sing in the church? DJ: I grew up singing all the time in West Virginia. M2: You got a lot of church music from that_ DJ: Yeah, it sort of sounds like that sometimes I guess. M2: Is that why you got hold of a chord organ when you first started out playing and recording? DJ: Well, when I first started recording I was playing on piano. Songs of Pain_ that's actually my first recording. We'll release the best of that period this year and call it Songs of Pain. A lot of people say it's my best. M2: How did you learn piano, by yourself? DJ: Well, I could read music, and I started figuring out chords, and I had the Compleat Beatles, and I would play the chords to the songs and sing it, the guitar chords. And that's how I learned, by playing the guitar chords. I would re-arrange the progressions in Beatle's songs. By playing them in reverse or mixing them around I would make up my own progressions. M2: What was next then? Did you pick up guitar next, or the chord organ? DJ: When I came to Austin I finally got a hold of a guitar. I'd been playing a little ukelele thing. this guy finally gave me a guitar, and I was real excited about it, 'cause it was nylon strings and the strings were close together. M2: Was that what you played "Sorry Entertainer" on, or was that the ukelele? DJ: I played "Sorry Entertainer" on a little Smurf guitar. M2: That's cool sound though. When did you get into the chord organ? That was a big sound for you. DJ: That was in 1983 when I first moved to Texas and I was in Houston. And from Houston I moved to San Marcus, and in San Marcus I joined a traveling carnival. And we traveled to Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas. And that's how I ended up in Austin. We came to town with the carnival. M2: And did the carnival just stop there or did you like Austin so much that you wanted to stay? DJ: Well, I was out of a job. But I didn't know about the music scene at all. All I knew about was 6th Street. And they all did top 40 music, and I didn't think much about that. I didn't really think I was going to make it in music. I hoped; I was telling people I was going to be a rock star. But it was a pleasant surprise. M2: What were you doing in the carnival? Were you playing music? DJ: I was selling corn dogs. M2: Were you writing songs at that time? DJ: Yeah, I started working on some songs, like "Marching Guitars." M2: But you started playing the chord organ when you were first in Austin. DJ: No, I started the chord organ in Houston. When I first moved to Texas I lived in Houston with my brother. M2: And how did you get a hold of the chord organ? DJ: It was my nephew's. I had to come down to get a job, 'cause there were no jobs in West Virginia. That's how I ended up in an alley. M2: That sound was really super original for you. Are you beating on it real hard? DJ: Some people thought I was playing percussion, but it's just from hitting the keys so hard. I wasn't really doing that intentionally. M2: It's probably one of the most original sounds I've ever heard in music_ your voice with that sound. When did you start doing stuff where you were just tape recording by yourself, and sometimes you would tape a track, and then you'd play it, and then you'd do another song over it like "Danny Don't Rapp." DJ: Those were experiments in overdubbing. I hope to work someday in the studio and do a lot of overdubbing and multitracking. M2: You have done some of that already. DJ: Yeah, but every time I work in the studio it's always rush, rush. I look forward to the day when I can spend more time in the studio and have a studio that would let me record all the time. M2: You'd rather record in the studio than buy yourself a tape recorder. DJ: Yeah, I want the sound quality to be better. I don't want to waste my time on a small tape recorder anymore except for demos. That's why I thought it would be fun to do a live album_ to just play it out and get all the songs out there. M2: I liked your Live at South By SouthWest tape. It's a little bit hard to hear, but I liked the performances a lot. That was cool. In the studio work that you've done have you enjoyed working with Jad Fair and Kramer? DJ: I really enjoyed working with them. M2: Can you tell me something about working with Jad and writing those songs together? DJ: It was wild. We met up in New York when I was working with Kramer. Kramer wanted me to come up and try the studio, and that's how I ended up going to New York. And Jad was there and he had some lyrics and I'd heard his album 'cause he had sent it to my manager when I was living in Austin. And he had some lyrics, and I just sat down at the piano, and I think the first one was "Some Things Last a Long Time." And we recorded a few other songs that day that haven't been released. And Kramer says, "Hey, you two ought to get together and do an album!" And I said, "Sure." So we ended up a year later_ I went to Maryland and I wrote some lyrics, and we went up to his upstairs room where he had a drum set. I started playing drums and he started playing guitar, and we recorded. "It's Spooky" was the first song we did. I loved his lyrics 'cause every time he'd write out a little bit and I'd finish it. Like "Frankenstein Conquers the World." We wrote a number of those together. The big thing about that is we're going to re-release it with a bunch of unreleased tracks, because it wasn't distributed very well. We're re- releasing it with extra tracks, like we did a version of the Butthole's "Seedloaf." M2: So did you really meet Roky Erickson then? Is that song true? DJ: I knew him when he used to live here in town. The story is like on the record; that's the whole story. M2: You used to watch horror movies together. DJ: Yes, we did. We watched Third House on the Left. He really like that one. When it got to the end where all the people were killed, he kept rewinding it back. M2: So is he sort of a strange guy? Is he nice? DJ: I think he's a great guy. M2: Did you play any music with him? DJ: No, we never got around to that. that was my intention, but we never got around to doing it. I played piano with his mother once. M2: What's she like? DJ: She was real nice. M2: She was a musician as well? DJ: Yeah. They were a very friendly family. M2: What about your cover of "Tomorrow Never Knows" on that album? You do it straight basically, then you stop and say,"No, no, no, don't go down, don't give in!" DJ: That was sort of my opinion at that time, that some people might have been taking that old song in that way, taking it the opposite way than it was originally intended. They can take a regular lyric and they can say, "This is what this means, and think about it that way," and they twist it inside out. Then they tell the singer to sing it again, and they're thinking that thought. And they sing it again, and everybody says, "Yeah, it sounds like that's what he means." It's lies. Lies are terrible. Lies are black holes. Don't fall into that void; you'll never come back. M2: That's true. What do you think that song means? DJ: I think it's supposed to be something from The Book of the Dead. I think it's "Relax and float downstream_" M2: What about some of Lennon's other bizarre lyrics like the song "I Am the Walrus." What was your opinion of that? DJ: You see with dead dog's eyes_ M2: Yeah, that's a bizarre lyric. You have several songs like the "King Kong" where you take a hero or somebody who's been misunderstood, and you tell the story from their side or you clear up some misunderstood facts about the story in defense of that person or character. I was wondering if there were other people you knew of either in real life or characters that you feel got misrepresented by stories_ DJ: Captain America. He suffered the most. M2: How's that? DJ: He was the greatest hero of all time. M2: But how do you think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby misrepresented him? DJ: Captain America's my father. M2: Is that right? In the song "Rocket Ship" from Yip Jump Music you sing "My bags are packed, I'm ready to go" and it sounds a bit like Peter, Paul and Mary, but you're getting into a rocket ship rather than a jet plane. Is that something you've ever wanted to do, to go up into space? DJ: One day I will. I'll go to Mars or something. M2: How come? DJ: When I'm Frankenstein, I'll go to Mars. M2: Uh-huh. Did you watch any science fiction movies? Are you interested in space travel? DJ: Yes, I like science fiction. M2: Have you read science fiction? DJ: 2001. Planet of the Apes. When the United States is blown up the apes will take over. M2: You think so? DJ: Yeah, just like in the movies. Just another one of them prophecies. M2: So you believe in predestination? DJ: Yeah, I'm already there; I'm in the future. I'm gone. I don't dwell in the past; I live in the past too. M2: Can you tell me something about how you feel about the final Tribulation, the endtimes? DJ: It's all in the Book of Revelations. M2: But not only what's in there, but like super heroes will be coming, and other characters that we know of now. DJ: Many super heroes are described. They talk about the angels. It's all there if you read it with an open mind, it'll just open up for you. I mean God wouldn't let a Great Tribulation go by without some super heroes running around. M2: That's true. So, you know what song I think is really powerful on 1990 is "Don't Play Cards With Satan, He'll Deal You an Awful Hand." Do you feel you ever have been through that situation? DJ: It's a mistake when you try to deal with the Devil. You shouldn't give him any credit or any ground to stand on. You just don't play cards with Satan because he cheats. And you don't want to play cards with a cheater. You shouldn't gamble anyway, always hoping to get something for nothing. You should try to live an honest life and get what you pay for and pay what you get for. M2: So "Playing Cards With Satan" was just a metaphor for some things that have happened to you in your life, or that anybody goes through when you're tempted by the Devil? DJ: I made a mistake and I sinned against the female Holy Ghost, with a witch. I've called her evil before, but me and her are friends now. But she handed me a cosmic cube, like a prism. And I got this idea to give her a holy embrace and I was trying to give her a shower, and I lost my old soul for a year and that's what 1990 was all about. M2: I see. But then you got yourself out of that eventually. And then Artistic Vice is the most upbeat album I think you've ever done, or one of them. DJ: Yeah, it's sort of Beatleish. M2: Yeah, songs like "My Life is Starting Over." DJ: Many of those songs are about the love of my life, Laurie. M2: Yeah, and are you still thinking about Laurie these days? DJ: Yes I do. I think about her all the time. I have a home movie of her on video, and I like to watch it 'cause it's so lonely. And I try to talk to her but I don't hear her voice, and sometimes I wish she could hear me. We sent her a CD and an album and a cassette, so I'm hoping to get a reply from that. M2: Why did you record this album in West Virginia? Were you at home with your parents at home there? DJ: Yeah. We just moved down here not too long ago. Outside of Houston_ that's where I was living when they brought me here. M2: Did you meet Laurie in West Virginia or in Texas? DJ: Yeah, when I was living in West Virginia and going to a branch of Kent State. I was sitting in the classroom and in walked this beautiful girl. She was so beautiful she was glowing. And I've never been affected so much then or since by a girl's presence. It was like I didn't know what to say, so I just said, "Hi, How are you?" And she said,"Hi, How are you?" And I couldn't believe she was so friendly to me. And she worked in a store and I was down there seeing her all the time. Before I met her I found out her name and I changed all my classes to her classes. M2: So did you get to know her a little bit? DJ: Yeah, she worked in the store and I went and hung out. I kind of regret the old days because I hardly let her say a word because I was so happy being around her I would just yell my head off and making funny jokes and everything, and she thought it was funny. M2: Did you play music for her ever? DJ: Yes, in fact that's how the music career started for me. It was sort of a joke. I'd write these particular songs on piano, and I'd play them for her, and it was like "You have lovely ankles, You're a natural woman," or something. So I played her that and she said, "You know, you do that rather well." Every day after that I was bang, bang, bang on that old piano. If you listen to the songs, you'll see how much of the songs are about her. Even though she's married now and has kids, I still love her. And I hope to at least be able to talk to her on the phone. M2: What's that song on Artistic Vice, "The Startling Facts"? What's that really about? DJ: It's about one of the last times I saw her_ at a funeral. And her boyfriend, the undertaker's son, popped me the finger. So it's pretty heavy symbolism for me, because I became obsessed with death and was certain it would happen to me. But "such love a flame I overcame victorious; filled my heart with such desire so grand and so glorious; glory sweet an angel dear, here with me today, not in person but in memory of me will always stay." M2: That's a good memory you have. What do you think about Walt Disney's stuff? DJ: I love Walt Disney's stuff. That's another thing that's happened, everybody trying to convince everybody that Walt Disney was evil. That's ridiculous. You watch Bambi and Donald Duck and all them. They were good old dudes. That's another thing that happened. They try to brainwash you. The Walt Disney company might not be in as fine shape as they were years ago, but to say that the whole thing was a conspiracy is completely ridiculous. But people fall for that, and they believe that Mickey is the Devil. M2: Do you think that little kids are more in tune with what's really going on? DJ: Yeah, they know. They watch the TV shows. If they don't like it they change the channel too. They have the same choice. M2: Did you watch a lot of TV when you were a kid? DJ: Oh yeah, I grew up with TV. I loved monster movies: Godzilla and King Kong and Frankenstein and Wolfman and The Mummy. Frankenstein and King Kong were my favorites. My favorite movie was King Kong Versus Godzilla when I was a kid. I remember in elementary school they asked me to write a history of my life, and I wrote, "I was born in California and then yesterday I saw King Kong Versus Godzilla." M2: You were born in California? DJ: Yes, Sacramento, California, January 22nd, 1961. M2: One of my co-editors here told me that there are some people who are writing books and claiming to have channeled John Lennon's spirit, and that John Lennon is speaking to them and stuff_ DJ: Those are just like false prophets you see on TV. They say they've got the Holy Ghost and taking people's money. All they talk about is money. M2: So you don't believe in those televangelist people, do you? DJ: No. Anyone who has the gift wouldn't bastardize it like that. John Lennon wouldn't talk to someone who would bastardize it. I imagine he'd talk to me. M2: What are some of your favorite John Lennon songs? DJ: Well, I like One Thing You Can't Hide Is When You're Crippled Inside, Nowhere Man, Norwegian Wood, Strawberry Fields Forever, I Am the Walrus, I Want to Hold Your Hand, all of his songs. M2: Why do you think that someone like Charles Manson would misinterpret the White Album so badly? DJ: He's crazy. He thought The Beatles were telling him to kill people, so The Beatles must have wanted Charles Manson to kill people, which is certainly wrong. The Beatles were a good thing. They were singing 'All you need is love'. Do you think they were secretly planning to kill everybody? Trying to hook up with some scum bum living out in a reservation hole? They were doing all their work for him? M2: Not a chance. So do you follow politics? DJ: I thought it was very disturbing what happened in Los Angeles. It just goes to show the way those people think. It's not a good thing. they're going to end up killing themselves or killing each other. A lot of them are programmed for suicide. I would like to say something now: There's hope for everyone; there is a God; I believe in God; God stands by me and saved me from the mouth of the lion of suicide and violence. M2: That's definitely a good message for those people in LA. How do you think some of the presidents we've had lately have figured into this whole scheme? DJ: I think Bush has done well. He's trying. He's got a lot of opposition. A lot of people with bad ideas just want to see bad things happen, and he's trying to make things happen, and they're just trying to work against him. He needs to take an iron hand and straighten things out. M2: You believe in the endtimes. Some people think that the endtimes are going to come out of the Middle East and that things like Iraq are just a precursor to greater strife. DJ: There will always be wars and winners of wars, but the United States will stand firm. They will not enter our soil. M2: Do you think the United States is under God's wing in this whole thing? DJ: Yes. The United States is the Garden of Eden. And when the flood happened and the continents parted, the Garden of Eden was moved and isolated and protected by the ocean. M2: What do you think of the ballet that's being done in France to Yip Jump Music? DJ: I think it's pretty funny. I haven't seen it or anything. M2: How did they find out about your music? DJ: My manager. He said, "Oh, by the way, somebody did a ballet of Yip Jump music in French." M2: Some New York guy. Why do you think they picked Yip Jump music? DJ: Maybe because it's a celibate album. When you have leotards on you're supposed to be celibate or something. M2: Is that what you thought of Yip Jump when you were doing it, a celibacy album? DJ: Yeah, it was a celibacy album. I thought I'd try it. And all the songs are cheerful. M2: Yeah, really enthusiastic. DJ: Yeah, it was really a step up from the way I was feeling. M2: So you were using some of the songs to cheer you up at the time? DJ: Yeah, I changed the subject. Instead of singing about funeral homes and everything, I thought I'd sing about speeding motorcycles. I read in the newspaper that some carnival had a speeding motorcycle, and I underlined it. Different songs from that period were about just trying to change the subject. What I need to do now_I was working on this album before I was incarcerated in the hospital here called Frankenstein Love. And I was writing some cool songs about Frankenstein. And it was these cool chords. And now I'm trying to write songs and I'm getting all these sappy love songs. It's not quite up to par. M2: What happened to the songs form Frankenstein Love? DJ: They're all like half-finished. M2: What is the tone of them? DJ: Serious. M2: Like pre-apocalyptic stuff? What kind of role does Frankenstein play in some of these songs? Is he a good guy or a bad guy? DJ: When I die, there will be no music. 100 years after I'm dead they'll resurrect my body and turn me into Frankenstein. Then I'll tour with The Beatles and the Butthole Surfers. There will be music like there's never been music before. M2: We had The Butthole Surfers in Issue 3. Gibby is into computer graphics and he submitted some of his computer graphics art to us to use with the article. They're photographs of his face and he scanned then into the computer. And with this program he's done all this stuff where he's twisted the face around. It's really weird. DJ: He's the greatest. He's beyond a clown. He's the ultimate warrior's apprentice. He's King Gibby. The man is a god. They're all gods, the Butthole Surfers. And anybody who worships the Surfers can be gods too. M2: I want to ask you about this movie that was made about Austin by a guy from Austin called Slacker. DJ: yeah, I knew that guy. I hung out with that guy. He shot movies of me and stuff. M2: Was he a good guy? DJ: Yeah, he's a great guy. M2: Did you see the movie? DJ: No, I want to check it out. M2: In one scene, some people are walking out of a record store, and your music is playing out of the record store stereo. I asked Jeff about it and he said it was your favorite record store in Austin, and that they really liked you and they played your stuff in there. DJ: Yeah, I used to hang out in that record store, Record Exchange. I used to hang out there, and the girls that worked there I called them my secretaries, and they used to take calls for me and sell my tapes. I told them to push the tapes like french fries at MacDonald's, "Would you like a tape with that record, sir?" M2: You worked at MacDonald's for a while didn't you? What is it like working for that organization? DJ: I loved working for MacDonald's because they let me work in the lobby, and I cleared the tables and watched all the people coming in and walked around in circles. It was one of the world's largest MacDonald's lobby. I walked around in circles all day, cleaning off the tables, emptying the garbage cans, watching the people coming in, watching them talk. It was a lot like a surrealistic Twilight Zone movie. M2: Was this in Austin? DJ: Yeah. M2: Did you start to know the people? DJ: Yeah I knew most of the people, but I didn't talk to them. I was just the guy who wiped the tables. But I would use it as kind of a headquarters, 'cause people would come in and ask me to play a gig with them. Or they'd come in and I'd say, "Hey, will you do one of my songs?" And people would come in and interview me and stuff. Those were the early Austin days. Now the somewhat older Daniel Johnston is attempting to regain faith in a crowd that is long since grown up themselves and forgotten me. M2: A lot of hip people in the meantime have covered your tunes. DJ: Yeah, that's cool. They're still working on putting together an album of people doing my songs. I was originally trying to get it together myself, and we even had a benefit concert and Poison13? played, Texas Instruments, Glass Eye; but it never came about back then. M2: Do you have any secrets about MacDonald's that you'd like to share with the world? DJ: I used to eat out of the garbage. Every ten minutes they were supposed to throw out the hamburgers, and I'd be watching because I was starving. And when the manager would throw them in the garbage bag, I was the one who would empty the garbage bag, so I would munch down. I walked it off. I wore my shoes out walking around town and walking around MacDonald's. I didn't get a good pair of shoes until I met up with a pot dealer, my manager. M2: Are those your worried shoes you were referring to back then? DJ: Yeah, I hung them up on my wall. M2: Have you heard about the art exhibit of yours in Berlin? DJ: Yeah, I'm very excited about that. I'd like to have more shows. I have tons of drawings, old stuff that I could show. I'm going to go through them and send you some. M2: I really like the water color on the cover on 1990. Do you have a lot of water colors, or do you do less of that? DJ: That was an acrylic painting. I don't have many of those. But I have some water colors. M2: When did you start experimenting with oil? DJ: I went to art school at Kent State. That's where I met Laurie. She's the girl of my dreams, but don't ever tell her, 'cause I don't know how she'll react. Don't print it in your magazine. M2: You were painting back then. But you were drawing way before that. DJ: Yeah, I was drawing before I was writing songs. My aspirations were to be a comic book writer. I never thought that I'd be a musician until I heard The Beatles. M2: But you were inspired by Jack Kirby and the early Marvel artists. DJ: I studied the drawings 24 hours a day. I know my drawings don't look anything like Jack Kirby's, but he's the greatest artist of all times. He's right up there with Salvador Dali. M2: But your drawings have very specific content that comes just from you. DJ: It's a surreal play inside my mind that even I don't understand. It's more real than I am. It's more real than the things that I do. This cartoon world that goes on, it's just of itself. I'm not making it up. The pictures draw themselves. I only look and reflect and try to interpret what's going on. That may be a frightening moment for anyone who would consider being my friend. I live in another world, another plane. I'm not Daniel Johnston at all. M2: Who are you then? Are you Joe? DJ: Joe is me_ M2: But it's a part of you that battles Vile Corrupt? DJ: I've sinned against myself. I'm Daniel Johnston and I've always been Daniel Johnston. The only reason that I tried to claim that I wasn't Daniel Johnston was to try to step out of myself for a minute for a brief break from infinity. It would never last. I can't get away from being Daniel Johnston. M2: But the play that you exhibit in your drawings with Vile Corrupt and the boxing matches_are you perpetually boxing with Vile Corrupt, and is that the only way that you battle him, through boxing? DJ: Well, originally it started out_I thought that this creature was evolving from the innocent frog, and I thought to myself that I would like an innocent frog. And I thought it would have to develop and have more eyes to become not naive anymore. And I didn't want it to become a monster like I thought everyone else was. But there was this Vile Corrupt that I invented that ended up on the back of the cover. When I started drawing again I was boxing this thing. And without even thinking, I was fighting this thing, whatever it was. and then I had a girlfriend, and I had never had a girlfriend before, and I hadn't had much sex with girls, and I became a monster. She didn't give me enough love, or what I needed or whatever, and all I got was sex, and I became a monster. And I was battling myself. It was terrible. It was a nightmare. This Vile Corrupt was me at this point. But then there was another point I thought I was Satan. I don't fight anymore. I'm not boxing anymore. Of course, I'm not drawing anymore. I thought that I had it all figured out. You would probably do a lot better than me if you were interviewed. M2: Nobody ever has it all figured out. DJ: But I believe that there is a high God, and that stays the same. M2: So the drawings were inspired by some inner conflict, and now you've resolved some of that and the drawings don't come as much. So the drawings were like dreams. Did you dream some of this stuff back then? DJ: I don't remember my dreams, but some people do. i mean some people remember my dreams for me. M2: What about the cover of Artistic Vice, did you put together that collage? DJ: Yeah, I did. M2: Obviously there are some things you enjoy, like The Beatles and Casper. There's a little guy on the left that's coming upon some devil worshippers, and I think it's Captain America's alter ego_ DJ: No, it's not. It's a Jack Kirby creation there. M2: Then there's a Frankenstein. There's a little black and white photograph of a man_ DJ: That's Jack Kirby. M2: Where did you get the photograph? DJ: From a 50 cent Kamande? comic book special. I'm going to name my first son Kamande, the Last Boy on Earth. I mean I won't call him Kamande, the Last boy on Earth; I'll call him Kamande Johnston. M2: Now where is "I'll do the best I can dad, but it's gonna be hell trying to stop the Angel of Death. DJ: That's from QuickSilver. That was another Jack Kirby comic book that he did for one of those underground comic books. M2: And then you're standing next to a statue of George Washington. Where was that? DJ: That was in Austin, Texas a long time ago. Right on campus. M2: Do you like George Washington? DJ: He was the first president of the United States, and he reminds me of my friend Ron Harris. He was the man who discovered grievances. You know the song Grievances on Songs of Pain? All my songs are based on it. And he discovered that song. I played it and he said, "Play it again." And he liked it so I kept playing it and improving it, and it became my song of songs that all my songs are based on. Songs like Almost Got Hit by a Truck_ M2: that's great song by the way. It's one of my favorite songs of yours. It's so pretty and so sad sounding. DJ: It's all true. M2: Did that happen to you? DJ: Lots of times. In the song it says like 3 or 4 times. Each one is true. M2: Are you wandering around in the street on purpose or are you spacing out? DJ: I'm always sort of wandering around. I'm sort of an idiot savant I suppose. I'm not too smart. M2: I think you're pretty smart. DJ: I fooled you. M2: Anybody who's written as many songs with as much content to them as you have gotta have some intelligence. I think they're fooling you. DJ: Well, once again I was denying. M2: There's a clipping here that says,"Draw first day, no lessons, no talent." Is that how you felt about yourself when you first started drawing? DJ: No. I always felt like I was a star. Somebody told me when I was a kid that I was going to be famous. I don't know if I came up with this idea myself_elementary school I'm already thinking I'm going to be famous, and I'm drawing pictures with that intent. M2: Were you drawing when you were a little kid? DJ: Yeah. M2: And what were your drawings like then? DJ: Dinosaurs and monsters and I'd make up my own super heroes, and armies, soldiers fighting and killing each other. M2: I was into the same stuff when I was a kid. What were some of the names of the super heroes? DJ: Gargantua, Tarzan, Tom the Pirate, Sassyfras the Cat_that was my big hero when I started making my own comic books: Cool Comics Presents. I used to draw my cat and she turned into a super hero and was fighting all the comic book heroes and fighting Frankenstein and everybody. M2: Did she win? DJ: Of course. M2: Did she have a cape and stuff or was she basically a normal cat? DJ: Well, she started out as a girl cat, but she turned into a man in the comic book. I was sort of a sidekick. If there was something I could say to make anyone reading this right now feel relaxed and entertained. These are words being printed right now. I'm actually saying them now, but you'll be reading them later; I just want to entertain you everybody, and that's what I'm trying with my songs. For me, the horror movies and the twilight zones and the comedy and the good times, it's real, and in my art it's the ultimate for me to be able to express these things because it makes them real for me. It's not real until I put a frame around it. I'm excited for now to have the opportunity to entertain and be able to get on stage and put on a show. M2: What does 'walking the cow' mean? DJ: There was that Borden ice cream that had the little girl walking the cow on the wrapper. I cut it out and glued it on my notebook. And later when I picked up my chord organ and started writing songs, I looked at that and I wrote down 'walking the cow', and when I'd finished I thought I'd done something pretty cool. M2: But then later in Key-Punching Joe, you say "I've been singing the blues and walking the cow." Did walking the cow become like singin the blues for you? DJ: What it represented was walking your responsibility. It's like a burden to me, like walking the cow was bearing your cross. I don't want to stay here but I'm walking the cow. M2: So it's sort of living out life; it's sort of carrying on. DJ: Yeah, that's another song of mine, Living Life. M2: On Artistic Vice you have the clip of Girls, Girls, Girls. where did that come from? DJ: From Sad Sack. He really likes the girls and I do too. I love pictures of girls and movies with girls and girls in person even. It brings life into my little world. M2: Well, there will be girls in your audiences when you go out playing. DJ: Yeah, that's exciting. I want to put on a good show. M2: Will you be playing electric or acoustic guitar? DJ: Acoustic. M2: have you ever played electric guitar much? DJ: No, I haven't. I'd like to pick it up some day. Hopefully i could learn some new chords. M2: On Sorry Entertainer you played on a de-tuned Smurf guitar_have you ever experimented with changing the tuning on a regular acoustic guitar? DJ: Yeah, but I haven't released any of it. But I've horsed around a lot like that. M2: It sounds like you have a good ear for taking something that's in a weird tuning and actually making a song out of it, which is something not very many people can do. DJ: Yeah, like I said, I wish I had more time in the studio to experiment. If I had the time I would start recording some noises and add on to it. M2: Would you like to sample stuff from your life? DJ: I've done things like that before, taking little clips of things and putting them together. I'd like to experiment like that. M2: What do you think of rap music and this whole idea of building collages of different sounds to make a new song? DJ: It's great. What's the matter with the rappers taking a song that's already been? That's fine. If they make it sound cool it's alright. M2: People playing real instruments in bands are also incorporating tape loops and samples like Cramer with Bong Water? does stuff where he uses tapes over real instruments. DJ: I like it a lot. On my tapes there are a lot of little things between the songs, and I plan to put a lot of those in the Songs of Pain album. M2: Do you remember in "Hi, How Are You" you were using one of those Farmer John things, the cow sound. That's great. I remember when I heard the record that I'd had one of those. You were obviously playing with all your nephew's stuff, right? DJ: yeah, even the chord organ was my nephew's. M2: Do you still have it? DJ: Something happened to it. Nobody knows where it is anymore. M2: Do they still make those things? DJ: I have a couple of them. I bought one in a rummage sale, and people have given me some. M2: Do you ever play it? DJ: I played it a little bit on Artistic Vice on I Know Casper. M2: Do you have any ambition when you get out of doing more visual art? DJ: Yes, I'd like to make videos. I've got a video camera now. I'd like to get together with friends and people I meet and make these crazy video story ideas. M2: Like what sort of stuff? DJ: I've made some that have been pretty fun. We just made it up as we went along and we'd stop and get some more ideas and film again. It was a lot of fun. There's a video that Randy Camper made that's really good. M2: What's that? DJ: He made a 45 minute video of stuff that he shot of me. M2: Playing music or talking? DJ: Both. M2: do you mind being videotaped? DJ: I love it. I live for that moment when I can be part of a production of art, a drawing or recording a song. When that video camera is on, I'm ready; I become my true, crazy self. M2: You're a born star. DJ: Well, a ham maybe. I've always wanted to make people laugh. There have been years where I was depressed and I was a total recluse, and I didn't talk to anybody and I didn't have any friends really. But that's just part of my manic depression. Manic depression is a frustrated mess. M2: Do you like Jimi Hendrix? DJ: Yeah, I love him. M2: I talked to Neil Young a while ago, and at the end of the interview I gave him a tape of Yip Jump Music, 'cause I had just started listening to you. And I told him to listen to it. DJ: Wow, I was really listening to Neil Young really heavy when I recorded that album. M2: I figured that. I heard the connection when I first heard you. which Neil Young stuff do you like the most? DJ: I like Zuma, Tonight's the Night. I used to get all the albums on 8 track tape. M2: Back in the 70's. DJ: Everything he's done_with Crosby and Stills and with Buffalo Springfield_everything he's done is cool. M2: Do you ever sing other people's tunes? DJ: I used to sing all the Beatles' tunes, 'cause I had a Beatles songbook. I used to get these songbooks and sing these old ragtime Tin Pan Alley songs, and I used to play at the rest homes. I'd put on a show and play Tip-Toe Through the Tulips and Anything Goes and Happy Talk from south Pacific. In the song a Chinese lady sings it and it's totally different. I had never heard it; I just learned it from the sheet music. M2: I recognized the tune when I heard your version of it with Jad. So is there anybody else that you listen to, any other bands or anything that you would like to work with if you were given the opportunity? DJ: Yeah, I'd like to work with just about anybody that would like to goof around. I'd like to play drums with somebody else. Just get together with people with 4 track machines and just horse around a lot, and not be paranoid about being in a studio. M2: Why drums? DJ: I love to play drums. I got to play drums with Jad and I felt like the Mighty Thor. M2: It gives you a feeling of power. I play music with electric bands, and every time I get up there to play I'm always amazed at how loud the drums are. One more thing: On the cover of Artistic Vice, there's four red stars and there's a seven on the bottom right. What does that mean? DJ: I had some empty space so I thought I'd put a lucky 7. M2: Are there any other significant numbers in your life? DJ: Number 9 is the human number. "Number 9, number 9, number 9". M2: what do you think that song is about? DJ: It's about The Great Tribulation. M2: About the endtimes? Why do you think what's-his-name killed John Lennon? DJ: Because he was insane. M2: Do you think John would still be making music today? DJ: Yeah. I believe the Beatles would have been back together. It would have been a dream come true for me. I think about the Beatles that much. M2: Have you ever written to Paul McCartney or tried to get in touch with him? DJ: No, but I sent some letters to Yoko at the Dakota when I was in New York. I left her a bag of tapes. M2: I bet she'd appreciate your music.